Complaints

• Initial Complaint

  25/08/2022

  Complaint Type:

  Product Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  On July 13, 2022 the host of above noted campground we were staying at screamed and yelled at me because my 4 year old son took off his wet clothes while he was playing in the creek and thus got naked. He screamed at me in front of my children and other campers. He later told my husband (about 6pm) that we either could stay and the next time we did something wrong we would have to leave without a refund, or we could leave in the morning and get a refund. We decided to leave because it was no longer safe for us to stay there. If he could scream and yell over a kid being naked, I couldn't image what else he was capable of. We left that same night. We had 2 sites booked. We only received a refund for 1 site, not the other. They refuse to issue a refund. I'm expecting about $575 back (prepaid from July 3 to August 3rd - I want a refund from July 13 to August 3rd). We did NOT break any of their rules as stated on their website to warrant an "eviction", and consequently refuse a refund. They have not responded to my last 2 emails. I want a refund for my second site. We spent a lot of money on hotels after we were forced to leave the campground. Everything was booked during high season and tournament season. I expect a refund for those 20 days we were not occupying the site.

  Business response

  30/08/2022

  From  The Knutsford Campground Ent. Ltd.                                                                                                                                                                                                                               August 29, 2022

       To whom it may concern:

       First of all , let me tell you a little bit about our business.

       We are a family run Campground, with presently one other employee at this time. We have over 100 sites, and are full nearly every night at this time of the year. We take great pride in our Campground, and try to make everyone's stay as enjoyable as possible. It is not always easy. We have operated the Campground for 22 + years, and have never to my knowledge been reported, or had a complaint to you. (BBB) Dealing with the amount of visitors that we have during the season, there can and will be some misunderstandings. We pride ourselves in dealing with complaints fairly. Our goal is to have people leave happy, wanting to return, not mad and disgruntled. This unfortunately is not always possible.

  I will relay our side of the story:  I will not use names. 

  The family involved, are a man, a woman with children. The first member of the family to arrive, was the man, who came in a van, and took a tenting site. He was in a tenting site, but we supplied him with electricity. He was a model customer, who paid on time, and was very polite. In his second month, he asked if the rest of his family could come and stay in their Motorhome close to his site. This was agreed to, this is what we do.

  The family arrived late in the day and set up across the road from the man and across the road from the creek. The very next day, an ******* couple came to our employee in the office, and complained that a child from the family that had just arrived was running through their site naked, and disturbing them. They asked if our employee could talk to the mother and tell her not to allow her child to run through their site. This was less than 24 hours of their arrival. 

  Our employee talked to the woman, and trying to be understanding, asked her if she wanted to be upgraded to a full service site which was right next to the creek. This at no additional charge. This was done. A day or so later, the lady next to the family that had just moved, came to the office and complained to our employee that there was a child running through her site naked. She asked our employee to tell the mother of the child that this made her uncomfortable, and could this not happen in the future. There was no reason for this, as the family's site was had immediate access to the creek. During this time, our employee asked, and then told the mother that this sort of behavior would have to stop, as it was causing other customers to feel uncomfortable.  Several days later another customer came to the office to complain that she felt uncomfortable letting her young children play at the play center, because there was a naked child playing there. And yes, it was a child from the family in question. We have a responsibility to all our customers, that they would have a good experience. This was not possible in this situation. Our employee finally spoke to the mother, and told her if she could not control her children better and supervise them better, she would have to leave. We have had this employee for 3 years now, and I can assure you that he does not scream at anybody. He is a soft spoken gentleman, who is well like by our clients, and loves children. As stated on our registration form, we do not give refunds. This is a common practice in most campgrounds. The mother left with the children the next day. Our employee asked, and was given permission to give the mother a $465.00 refund. We generally do not do this. The man came about 2 weeks later, and got the refund. He seemed to understand our position, and voiced no complaints. He said that he would also be leaving. Our employee told him that he did not have to leave, as he was not the problem. His site would be available to him in the paid period and there would be no refund. He did not have a problem with this.

  That, to the best of my knowledge, are the events that took place.

   

  Sincerely,

  Elson S*******

  Owner

  Customer response

  01/09/2022

  
  Complaint: ********
  
  I am rejecting this response because:

  Thank you for your response. I will now give an accurate and truthful account of the events that unfolded during the time of our stay at your campground from July 11 to 13, 2022, as it is clear to me that the events have either not been relayed to you properly or you have been malinformed. While I am grateful for the work the BBB does and that one of their functions is to facilitate discussions between businesses and consumers, it is a shame that I have had to resort to this to seek a resolution, since I did not receive a response to my last 2 emails. I could have chosen different routes to deal with this matter, but I chose to deal with you privately via email first, though unsuccessfully. I found myself forced to seek help from the BBB. I am hoping that we can now resolve this.
  We are a family of 7, husband, wife and 5 little children, from Vancouver, unfamiliar with the Kamloops area. I realize that you are a busy campground, and thus we are just one of many, and the fees we paid just a drop in the bucket for you. The man you are talking about, my husband, stayed in a tenting site at your campground, but paid for electricity. He paid $845 in advance, for the full month, for that site, electricity included in the price. He did not get free electricity. You have since raised your prices by $100. He also had his brand new $500 bike stolen there, while he was at work.
  On the 11th, your camp host told us to set up across from my husband’s site, because the one we had pr**paid $575 for 2 weeks, with full hook ups, was already occupied and they were leaving on the 12th. That first evening, my kids were so busy playing in the creek that they did not go into other people’s sites. In fact, that whole row of sites where my husband had his tenting site was free. He didn’t cross into anyone’s site.
  Late morning of the 12th, your camp host came to me and told me that we would be moving to another site with full hook ups. I asked him if we could stay where we were, as I had already started setting up and I liked the spot we were in, and the shaded area in the tenting site my husband had, with the creek there. He told me no because we had paid for full hook ups (no free upgrade as you stated – and your records would show that). I went to see the site he was talking about, and it was still occupied at the time. We finally moved there sometime mid afternoon. At this new site, I believe it was site *** both to my left and my right were 2 working individuals, appeared to be male, who were gone all day and only came in the evening. There was no woman as you mentioned.
  The morning of the 13th, after my husband got off a night shift, your camp host approached my husband and gave him a list of things we could not do, and one of those was no going into the creek. The camp host later saw me and gave me the same message (no mention of the creek to me), to which I agreed and apologized to him, and he even told me that there was no need to apologize. Things seemed to be fine. He never mentioned that anyone complained to him.
  Sometime in the afternoon of the 13th while on a work phone call with my boss I noticed that my son left our site. I went looking for him and found him, unfortunately naked, playing in the creek, in the ditch, right by the drainpipe, on the same side of the playground, across from the site where I’m guessing the lady that complained was staying. My son must have been there all but 5 minutes by himself, as I had to gather my other kids to come with me to look for their brother. Unfortunately, when my son gets his clothes wet, he takes them off. We suspect it might be a sensory issue that we are actively working on correcting. While I was still on my work phone call, and looking for my son’s clothes, I noticed your camp host talking with the lady at the corner site. I was standing on the bridge/drainpipe, my son in the ditch playing in the creek, and he told me to put his clothes on and so forth. I agreed with him and said that I do not want my son to walk around naked and that I was looking for his clothes. He then drove off on his quad past the playground, where the tenting sites are, came back, got infuriated and started yelling that he was still naked, and people were “giving him shit”. This was in front of my children, in front of that couple in that corner site. It was so loud my boss could hear him on the other end of the phone. He said that from that moment on we were not allowed to leave our site at all, to which I asked, “so the kids are not allowed to play on the playground anymore?”. Basically, we were to stay confined within our site, which meant no bike riding, no playing in the creek, no playing with a ball, nothing! Who can camp like that?? If those “rules” had been communicated to us from the beginning, we would have not come. But to then go and add new rules on the go is ridiculous. At close to 6 pm my husband called the camp host and asked him not to approach me the way he did. Your camp host admitted that it was bad timing, and told him that we could stay, but if we did anything else wrong (which could have been anything at that point), we would have to leave without a refund. Otherwise, we could leave in the morning, and we would get a refund, and that my husband had to leave, too.  (The camp host spoke to my husband, not me, as you state in your reply). At that point, it became clear that we could no longer stay. We were being forced to leave and I no longer felt safe, nor comfortable. We left that same night, late in the evening. Not the next morning, as stated by you. This all unfolded over 2 days, not several days as you stated.
  The next morning, I called your office, I spoke to a lady, she told me to email you. I asked for her opinion, if perhaps I should call your camp host and speak to him. She said no that he is the way he is and that it was done. I then got an email back saying you would be looking into it, but nothing further. After several days I called your office again and the lady that I spoke to was not very nice and said there was nothing she could do for me, and to email again. I called your camp host about the refund because my husband’s schedule had changed, and he could not make the phone call during business hours. Your camp host was rude to me, asked me if I had sent the email to you, and said that because I sent the email and tried everything I could, I would not be getting a refund, that the owners didn’t think we, the money we paid was not worth the trouble. He hung up on me both times I called. Is this a soft-spoken person, a gentleman, to you?  Your reviews online say otherwise. Are you implying that I am lying? What am I to gain here, other than my refund? Your reviews online say otherwise. He initially told my husband, too, that we would not be getting a refund. He later called my husband and told him pick up the refund, no cash, only back on the card. Why? Back on what card? My husband paid by **transfer, why not **transfer back the refund?
  To answer your question, why did my son go all the way to the end of the campground to play in the creek? Because we were told we were not allowed to play in the creek! Why would there be a swing hanging off one of the tree branches, right above the creek, in front of the site beside ours, if it cannot be used? Or was that rule just for us? I don't believe a child taking off his clothes to play in the creek even warrants a warning from the camp host. He's just a child, on vacation, enjoying himself. It is a quite common behavior in children. 
  Why am I asking for a refund for the time my husband was not occupying his tenting site (from July 13 to August 3rd)? My answer to this question will hopefully settle this whole thing: because your camp host told my husband that he had to leave as well. Why? He had done nothing wrong. He was hoping to stay long term. This happened at about 6pm at night while we were shopping for groceries for supper. How is that acceptable? How do you expect anyone to find alternate accommodations on a whim during high season, and tournament week, when everything is booked from Merritt to Vernon? With 5 little kids. 
  I can assure you that I do not want to stay at a campsite where there are people uncomfortable with children nudity, especially if the parents are actively working to correct it. **** ** ********** Based on where I found my son's clothes, along the creek behind her site, my guess is that he did not in fact walk through her site naked. He most likely walked through the creek back and forth, under the drainpipe. This makes me wonder if she was looking outside her window while he was playing in the creek, and down in the ditch, watching the water flow from one end of the drainpipe to the other and throwing rocks in the water. What is alarming to me is that a 4 year old being naked for all of 10 minutes is cause for someone to be asked to leave, rather than the uncomfortable, complaining adult being asked to leave, as it’s a family campground with children that play there. It is not uncommon for children to strip off their clothes.
  I had to send you 3 emails before we got our refund. You finally responded by saying that my husband said he was going to go in to get the refund. No. The camp host told my husband to go there in person to get the refund. Why? I had asked you to **transfer the refund as there was no need for any of us to go back there in person. No response to that. He finally went in when he had some time off work. I certainly did not think it would be a good idea for me to go after he hung up the phone on me twice. We didn’t break any of your rules or regulations. No law of the land was broken.
  Once again, I am kindly asking you to please refund me for the time my husband was not occupying his site.
  
  Sincerely,
  
  ****** ********

  Business response

  01/09/2022

  To BBB:

       In response, it is unclear to me what you wish for us to do. Our policy is no refunds. We have already given a refund, which has already gone beyond our normal procedures. I stand by my statements, which I have made in truth to the best of my knowledge.

  If you are interested to come and talk with the people who had complained about this family, I could see if they would be willing to do so. There were a minimum of 5 complaints, all from different people, and not only her neighbors. If there is anyone in our Campground who causes that many complaints, it is obvious to us that this cannot continue. The mother was given numerous warnings, which were not dealt with. We have a responsibility to all of our customers, and will and have always dealt fairly with everyone. 

       We have raised children, and have gone camping with them, so we understand it is difficult, especially in a busy Campground like ours. We have had families with 7 to 12 children in the past, and I must say that they were very well behaved and gave us no problems. There are numerous people who did also mention that many evenings, the mother would go around calling and looking for 1 or 2 of her children, which had gone "missing" In this day, that is not a good thing for our customers to hear and see. It is also not a safe thing for the children.

      In closing, we did have many legitimate complaints which as responsible Campground owners and employees we have to act upon. We did the best we could at the time, and stand by our actions. As far as I am concerned, our employee went above and beyond to try to deal with a bad situation. And it was a bad situation. This one family has caused us more problems by far than the other 100 plus site that are occupied in our Campground. It is unclear to me what middle ground you wish for us to take. We did get thank-you's  from other campers when this family left, so I will leave it up to you to decide. To us, the thank you's that we received, tells us that we did the right thing.

  Cheers,

  Elson S*******

  Customer response

  04/09/2022

   
  Complaint: ********
  
  I am rejecting this response because:

  Our request has been the same from the start. We want a refund for the time we did not occupy site #16 from July 13 to August 3, 2022. On July 13, 2022, at about 6 PM, we were told that if we BOTH left by the morning, we would get a refund. That statement overrides your policy. We left in good faith and respectfully. We left that same night. We received a refund for one site (site #93), we are now waiting for the second site (site #16). Why only refund one site when we had paid for 2?
  Now, please issue a refund for site 16. An **transfer is appropriate.
  Regards.
  ****** ********
  
  Sincerely,
  
  ****** ********

  Business response

  06/09/2022

  To BBB

       I am standing by our decision. My comment on the last response is to say that we feel that by giving you the refund for the Full service site, we have met you half way. The site that you want a refund for, was left open for the duration for the paid period. We did not fill it and made no further money on it. There will be no refund. You can continue to respond, but you should know our decision is final. We feel that we have treated you fair in this situation. In our 22 years of owning the Campground we have dealt with thousands of people. We have been given many notes of thanks for the service we provide. We feel very proud of our Campground.

  Thanks,

  Elson S********

  Customer response

  14/09/2022

   
  Complaint: 17764884
  
  I am rejecting this response because:

  This is to inform you that I have emailed you a 'Demand Letter' to your campground email. I am prepared to file a claim with the Civil Resolution Tribunal if I do not get a refund. 
  
  Sincerely,
  
  ****** ********

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