Complaints

• Initial Complaint

  07/11/2023

  Complaint Type:

  Customer Service Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  On June 24th, my girlfriend and I went to ******* for brunch at around 9:30 AM. We ordered our food and then a man came out of the kitchen and told us to leave because we "harrassed" his employee and we are "transphobic." We got up and left after ***** said "We support women's rights."The following weekend, two *************** went to ************ for brunch to see if they could get more of the story and start a conversation with the owner.As they were leaving, they asked to speak with the owner and he said that we had shaken our finger in the face of one of his employees and called them a "freak." He said this had happened about three weeks ago and that it did not happen at ************. He said he was protective of his employees and wouldn't tolerate us. Neither my girlfriend nor I have ever shaken our finger in anyone's face and called them a freak. I called ************ this past weekend and asked to speak to the owner. He came to the phone and I said "I was there two weeks ago and.." he interrupted me and said "Yeah. I know. I remember." I said "Some friends of ours had dined there to find out what the story was and I would like to have a conversation."He said "Nope. I am done with you. Don't ever come back here again." and hung up the phone.

  Business response

  07/28/2023

  Its important to us that our establishment is a safe and *************** in our community for everyone, both for the enjoyment of our customers and as a working environment for our staff.
  
  One of our team members, whom Ill refer to as A, was upset after seeing the customer who lodged this complaint, whom Ill refer to as Customer, enter our premises in June 2023. To be clear, A is a valued and trusted member of our staff; one who has been with us for over four years through multiple closures during the pandemic and has always been reliable, hardworking and adored by our customers.
  
  A, after seeing this customer,was visibly shaking and distraught to the point that one of the owners who was on site at the time this occurred thought she was about to have a panic attack.A explained that recently they had attended a Trans Pride event with their spouse. At the event, C witnessed Customer and someone with them approach their spouse, without any engagement from their spouse, to scream at them YOU F-WORD FREAK! while wagging their finger in spouses face. It was a scary altercation for A to witness and seeing this person again was very upsetting and made our team member feel unsafe. Putting ourselves in As shoes, we understood it was distressing seeing this person again and it would be upsetting to work around or serve someone who had behaved that way towards someone we loved.
  
  At that point the Customer and their companion were told their presence was upsetting for someone on staff and they were asked to leave. The business was open; it really wasnt an appropriate time to dig deeper or gain more clarity about the situation while serving our customers and we felt our responsibility to provide a safe working environment, both physically and emotionally, had to come first.
  
  We believe in fairness and do believe that usually there are two sides to every story, or at least degrees of misunderstanding.After this incident, we did a little investigating to dig deeper. A simple ****** search of the Customer plainly shows they hold some divisive and what we would consider hateful views towards Transgender people, is very vocal about their positions online and quite active in promoting anti-trans viewpoints under the guise of feminism. We acknowledge that the customer states the incident A describes didn't happen but as a result of our search, we felt it more likely than not that this incident had occurred either as A described or close enough to it and were comfortable with the decision asking Customer to leave.
  
  The Customer has every right to hold their viewpoints and to speak about them as loudly as they choose but at the same time, actions have consequences. If you choose to treat people with kindness you will usually get the same in return; if you spread divisive messaging online and in public, you risk having some people not wanting to be associated with you.
  
  We will not be offering an apology or welcoming the Customer back at this time. From our perspective, genuine apologies to A and their spouse from the Customer and time for feelings to heal would be required before any consideration of welcoming them back.
  
  We will never apologize for caring about our staff and providing a safe space for them and if we lose some customers as a result, were okay with that.

  Customer response

  08/07/2023

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.
  
  To the Owners of ************,
  
  
  Thank you for responding to my complaint via the BBB. I appreciate that you are willing to have a back-and-forth dialogue about this situation. I was especially happy to see you write this: "Its important to us that our establishment is a safe and *************** in our community for everyone, both for the enjoyment of our customers and as a working environment for our staff."
  
  
  I agree that maintaining a welcoming and safe environment for your employees and customers is important. I am truly sorry that someone shouted in your staff's spouse's face at a Trans Pride event recently. That kind of behavior is 100% unacceptable and obviously should not be tolerated. To be clear, I have never participated in this kind of behavior toward anyone anywhere.
  
  
  I wonder if your staff may be confusing me with someone else since neither I nor my girlfriend have ever waved our finger in someone's face and called them a "f-word freak." There was an incident at a feminist conference last year on April 23rd in which a woman shook her finger in the faces of a few trans activists before women from our conference guided her away from the scene. I apologize on behalf of that conference for that woman's behavior. We had an NVDA (non-violent direct action) training the night before our demonstration in which all the women involved were instructed to walk away if they felt their angry emotions taking over their composure, but this particular woman did not follow that rule.
  
  
  The only other thing I can think of that would go along more accurately with the timeline you have provided is that my girlfriend and I met up with a group of our friends at the Ideal bar the night of the Elliot **** event in ******* on June 12th at the Barrymore. This would line up better with your story that the incident occurred a few weeks before we went to breakfast at your restaurant. We did not attend the Eliot **** event, but our friends had and we went to the bar to meet up with them afterward. 
  
  
  Once at the bar, I locked my bike and went over to an outdoor table where I saw my friends sitting. They told me, soon after I sat down, that a group of three or four people sitting at another table were staring at us with scowls on their faces. I did not look over. We decided to go inside to the back room for privacy. We went inside and sat in the back room in our friend group that was about five or six of us. When it was time for me to leave I got up with a friend and walked to the front door. As we were leaving, the group of three or four was still outside at their table and nobody else was around. I asked my friend to walk me to the bike rack and stay with me until my bike was unlocked. As we walked over to the bike, someone from the table said "Did you go to the Elliot **** event?" and my friend said "Yes." The person at the table then asked "It was great, wasn't it? He's such a great writer" to which my friend responded, "Yes, she is." This response prompted the person at the table to tell my friend that *****************'s pronouns are "he/him/his" to which my friend said "I don't play that game. We all know she is female." By that time, I had unlocked my bike and I told my friend I was ready to go and bid her goodbye. As I was riding away, I heard someone from the table say "Be safe out there. It can be dangerous riding your bike at night" or something similar. The entire night I had no interactions with anyone outside of my friend group and specifically steered clear of the group sitting outside at the table. 
  
  
  This is my account of what happened in these two situations and is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. 
  
  
  My understanding is that ************ refused to serve me and my girlfriend based on the owner's perception of our political beliefs despite the fact that we had never had a conversation about political beliefs. It was extremely distressing to be ejected by the owner in front of all of the other customers on June 24th and to be called "transphobic" and accused, without evidence, of behaviors I have never engaged in that I myself find offensive.  
  
  
  What ************ is doing is discriminating against me based on their perception of my political beliefs. These political beliefs are directly related to my sexual orientation which is l****** This treatment was especially distressing to us as a l****** couple given that ************ has cultivated an image of inclusivity towards the ****** community. Our identity was completely invalidated and we felt humiliated. We see this as egregious behavior on ************ part and in violation of the non-discrimination ordinances of this city.
  
  
  I hope to hear from you soon and continue the dialogue.
  
  
  Regards,
  
  Thistle *********

  Business response

  08/21/2023

  Let us start by saying we can empathize with the customer over any confusion or upset that resulted from being asked to leave the restaurant. Our intent was not to cause embarrassment, rather, we were called on to take prompt steps to protect a member of our staff who was experiencing distress. When a staff member reports a safety or security concern, we take the matter very seriously.
  
  We would like to make absolutely clear that we welcome everyone at Ogdens North Street Diner regardless of race, gender identity, sexual orientation or political views and value that our establishment is a safe and ************** for everyone in our community.  The steps that Ogdens took were not based on the customers sexual orientation but rather on a report about her prior conduct and the lasting effect it had on our staff member. While Ogdens strives to be welcoming to all, our restaurant is firmly committed to providing our staff members with a safe working environment,treating them with respect and demonstrating that we value and support them. The restaurant industry can sometimes be tough and unkind to the people they employ.With a combined 61 years of experience in the industry, we have worked every position, with people from all walks of life, and have seen both the good and the bad this industry has to offer. It is these experiences that influence how hard we work to make sure our staff feels respected, appreciated, and safe. That commitment was the reason the customer was asked to leave.
  
  We can confirm that the underlying event that led to our staff members distress took place on April 23, 2022 outside the ********************** (Ogdens initial response provided an incorrect date for the prior incident).
  
  In the course of responding to the customers complaint, Ogdens has interviewed the staff member, their spouse who was the subject of the harassment and reviewed photographs from the April 2022 event provided from an additional witness. Our review of the facts leads us to believe that this was not a case of mistaken identity.Regardless, even in instances of disputed claims such as this, when a staff member reports that a customer has previously engaged in threatening or harassing conduct that has affected them, Ogdens takes such concerns seriously and will take the steps necessary to ensure a safe workplace. We hope the customer can appreciate ********************** policy of protecting its employees.
  
  We really do mean it when we say Ogdens strives to be a safe and welcoming space for our community. The customer has indicated that she simply wishes to have a pleasant and respectful dining experience, insists that she poses no threat to our staff and clearly desires to distance herself from the prior incident. After further internal discussion and consideration of the particular circumstances,we accept the customers intention to move forward in good faith and she is free to come back to Ogdens, provided that the affected staff member will not be required to serve or engage with her. To avoid a situation where the customer would not be served because this staff member is the only server available at the time, we strongly recommend that the customer call ahead to ensure that another member of our serving staff will be present. In lieu of a phone call,avoiding the first or last hour of service on weekdays would almost always be sufficient as those are generally the times only one server is present.
  
  Ogdens is offering this compromise in the hope of promoting tolerance and respect in our community. Even people who have passionate disagreements over deeply held beliefs can choose to engage civilly over their differences or, in settings such as Ogdens that are intended to be welcoming for all, leave their differences at the door and simply enjoy a good meat in pleasant company.
  
  Thank you,
  The Owners of Ogdens North Street Diner

  Customer response

  08/29/2023

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.
  

  It is not acceptable to have me come to the restaurant only at certain times and without an apology for how I was treated. I did not shout in anyone's face calling them a "fu**ing freak" and no evidence to the contrary has been presented. I would like to see the photos ************ claims to have seen that prove that this shouting incident happened and that it was me who did it.

  
  Regards,
  
  Thistle *********

*Some consumers may elect to not publish the details of their complaints, some complaints may not meet BBB's standards for publication, or BBB may display a portion of complaints when a high volume is received for a particular business. ↩